> 1. I think the main reason letterboxes go missing is poor
> replacement by visitors. [This assumes a good hiding spot by the
> placer! :-)]

Yeah, you can't count on someone finding your box replacing the box
as well as or better than it was found. A *good* hiding place tries
to idiot-proof the process, though. Some places are hard to get
JUST right. There's one tree in particular I remember where I hid a
box, and someone I had test looking for the box couldn't see it even
when they looked in the right hole and it was inches from their
face. Later visits showed the box virtually in plain view with over
a dozen people who'd found it by accident. In the end, I had to
conclude it was a bad hiding spot because the box needed to be place
JUST right so it wasn't in view, and the people replacing it didn't
realize (or care?) about it. *shrug*

But a good hiding place should make it easy for even the most
careless letterboxers to hide the box well.

> When putting the stamps and journals back in the letterbox,
> these same folks sometimes don't get the journal back into its
> zippy.

In an ideal world, that would never happen. But we haven't reached
that point yet. Make sure you've got a good letterbox container in
the first place, though, because even properly bagged journals fail!

> After I've visited a letterbox, I email the owner to let them know
> how their box is doing.... Isn't this a common courtesy?

It's nice when that happens, but that's NOT normal for most
letterboxers. I'm even guilty of not reporting finds--mostly out of
laziness. Usually I'll write if there's a problem with the box, but
otherwise it's a shoot or miss thing for me. (Depends on how
reliable my Internet access is as well. There are times when I
*can't* e-mail people easily.)

> Do most of you ever hear from firsties?

Nope.

When it comes to hiding letterboxes, you really need a mindset that
you're doing it for others to enjoy and let it go at that. If you
get too emotionally attached to a letterbox you've placed--it's
bound to hurt you eventually. Either it doesn't get the visitors
you hoped for, or the box goes missing, or whatever. Just remember,
though, even if you don't hear back about your boxes as much as
you'd like, there's still people out there who enjoy finding them
and appreciate your efforts.

There are boxes I've hidden nearly three years ago and haven't heard
so much as a whisper about. Of course, they do tend to be a little
off the beaten path, but still, three years is quite a while to go
for nobody to find a box!

Carpe diem!

-- Ryan

Diane and I always try to contact the placer for an update. We bring along replacement baggies and paper towels for wet boxes. The placers are always very happy to hear the status of their box or hitchhikers. Sometime we find a box that has a bit of plastic showing, but more often not, and the placement usually precludes casual observation, anyway.
Dunno. Maybe you've just hit a bad patch? It may adjust itself with time.

Dave, New England (the other NE)
The von der Insels
P9 F175 X93 H3 E1
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny McMillin
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:45 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Some Letterboxing Observations


Hello all,

After a couple of months of letterboxing I have several observations.

1. I think the main reason letterboxes go missing is poor replacement by
visitors. [This assumes a good hiding spot by the placer! :-)] I base this
on observing the several letterboxes I've planted. They are within walking
distance of my house; so I check on them a couple of times a week when out
walking the dog. Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as well as when the
folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm talking
about. Perhaps the area was busy; so they had to do the mad stash to return
the box. At any rate, I can see how letterboxes that can't be checked very
often are the ones most likely to go missing.

2. When putting the stamps and journals back in the letterbox, these same
folks sometimes don't get the journal back into its zippy. This seems to
happen when a group of letterboxers stamp in.

3.After I've visited a letterbox, I email the owner to let them know how
their box is doing. I've only had a couple of folks let me know how my
letterboxes are doing. Much appreciated. Isn't this a common courtesy?

4. I make a little certificate for the first finder congratulating them. It
also asks them to email me and let me know what they think of my letterbox.
I've yet to hear from any firsties. I know it's a bit vane on my part, but
I am curious to know what others think of my letterboxes. Do most of you
ever hear from firsties?

5. I've found a couple of hitchhikers in my journeys. I've contacted the
creators about their HH letting them know the details of its journey. But
surprisingly, I've not heard a word back from them. I know a lot of folks
who've launched HHs are quite curious to hear about their travels. It
baffles me as to why someone who creates a HH won't take the time to let a
person know they received the info on their HH. Oh well.

So yes, I'm a newbie with lots of enthusiasm. Maybe I've just got to learn
to be more callus in my outlook. Perhaps this is only a Pacific Northwest
thing. Is it different in the hotbed of letterboxing in the Northeast and
other areas of the country?

OK, my mild rant is over. Nothing too serious, eh?

See you on the trails.
Kegan the Airdale Terrier
aka
Danny








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danny,
You have hit a very sore spot with me. I have gone after certain very well seasoned letterboxers and found that same thing, the badly rehid boxes with the bags not sealed, etc. They should know better because they have boxes of their own and wouldn't want anyone to treat their's in that manner. On one encounter this group came upon a disabled person who had located the first box of a series to find that the disabled person was a first finder. The group stamped in with the disabled person past them by and left every box of the rest of the series out and they went on their happy way to the very big dismay of the disabled person. It's one thing to want a high count but it's entirely another to have total disregard for your fellow letterboxers whether they are finding or planter.
Sorry this has been a very sore spot for a while. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
Dragon Lady of The Columbian Bugs of Connecticut
PS They stamped so fast the other day they missed a bonus box!

Hello all,

After a couple of months of letterboxing I have several observations.

1. I think the main reason letterboxes go missing is poor replacement by
visitors. [This assumes a good hiding spot by the placer! :-)] I base this
on observing the several letterboxes I've planted. They are within walking
distance of my house; so I check on them a couple of times a week when out
walking the dog. Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as well as when the
folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm talking
about. Perhaps the area was busy; so they had to do the mad stash to return
the box. At any rate, I can see how letterboxes that can't be checked very
often are the ones most likely to go missing.

2. When putting the stamps and journals back in the letterbox, these same
folks sometimes don't get the journal back into its zippy. This seems to
happen when a group of letterboxers stamp in.

3.After I've visited a letterbox, I email the owner to let them know how
their box is doing. I've only had a couple of folks let me know how my
letterboxes are doing. Much appreciated. Isn't this a common courtesy?

4. I make a little certificate for the first finder congratulating them. It
also asks them to email me and let me know what they think of my letterbox.
I've yet to hear from any firsties. I know it's a bit vane on my part, but
I am curious to know what others think of my letterboxes. Do most of you
ever hear from firsties?

5. I've found a couple of hitchhikers in my journeys. I've contacted the
creators about their HH letting them know the details of its journey. But
surprisingly, I've not heard a word back from them. I know a lot of folks
who've launched HHs are quite curious to hear about their travels. It
baffles me as to why someone who creates a HH won't take the time to let a
person know they received the info on their HH. Oh well.

So yes, I'm a newbie with lots of enthusiasm. Maybe I've just got to learn
to be more callus in my outlook. Perhaps this is only a Pacific Northwest
thing. Is it different in the hotbed of letterboxing in the Northeast and
other areas of the country?

OK, my mild rant is over. Nothing too serious, eh?

See you on the trails.
Kegan the Airdale Terrier
aka
Danny








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your first two observations are true, concerning re-hiding well and
in good condition. "Hide it better than you found it" is our motto.
The other three observations all involve contact by e-mail. Keep in
mind this is primarily an outdoor activity, not an internet activity
(with the obvious exception of virtual letterboxes). Emails from
finders are delightful, but not expected. I only send them when a
box needs attention by the placer. I assume that part of my
responsibility in placing a box is returning to it regularly to
maintain and THEN read notes from finders, in the log, in the great
outdoors. (At which point I do the happy dance, "They liked it! They
liked it!" much to the embarrassment of my family.)
Aud

I usually don't find that my LBs have been poorly re-hidden but the
journal-less baggie really gets me! I spent the past few weeks
checking on some of my letterboxes and I can't tell you how many of
them had the journal sitting outside of the baggie. Just yesterday I
found one of my boxes that had gotten a little water in it. If the
journal had been replaced in its baggie, most likely, it would not
have been soaked. I have started to leave a note for finders to be
sure to replace the journal into the baggie before re-hiding.
Hopefully this helps!

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Danny McMillin
wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> After a couple of months of letterboxing I have several
observations.
>
> 1. I think the main reason letterboxes go missing is poor
replacement by
> visitors. [This assumes a good hiding spot by the placer! :-)] I
base this
> on observing the several letterboxes I've planted. They are within
walking
> distance of my house; so I check on them a couple of times a week
when out
> walking the dog. Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as well as
when the
> folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm
talking
> about. Perhaps the area was busy; so they had to do the mad stash
to return
> the box. At any rate, I can see how letterboxes that can't be
checked very
> often are the ones most likely to go missing.
>
> 2. When putting the stamps and journals back in the letterbox,
these same
> folks sometimes don't get the journal back into its zippy. This
seems to
> happen when a group of letterboxers stamp in.
>
> 3.After I've visited a letterbox, I email the owner to let them
know how
> their box is doing. I've only had a couple of folks let me know how
my
> letterboxes are doing. Much appreciated. Isn't this a common
courtesy?
>
> 4. I make a little certificate for the first finder congratulating
them. It
> also asks them to email me and let me know what they think of my
letterbox.
> I've yet to hear from any firsties. I know it's a bit vane on my
part, but
> I am curious to know what others think of my letterboxes. Do most
of you
> ever hear from firsties?
>
> 5. I've found a couple of hitchhikers in my journeys. I've
contacted the
> creators about their HH letting them know the details of its
journey. But
> surprisingly, I've not heard a word back from them. I know a lot of
folks
> who've launched HHs are quite curious to hear about their travels.
It
> baffles me as to why someone who creates a HH won't take the time
to let a
> person know they received the info on their HH. Oh well.
>
> So yes, I'm a newbie with lots of enthusiasm. Maybe I've just got
to learn
> to be more callus in my outlook. Perhaps this is only a Pacific
Northwest
> thing. Is it different in the hotbed of letterboxing in the
Northeast and
> other areas of the country?
>
> OK, my mild rant is over. Nothing too serious, eh?
>
> See you on the trails.
> Kegan the Airdale Terrier
> aka
> Danny

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Jay and Amy"
wrote:
> I usually don't find that my LBs have been poorly re-hidden but the
> journal-less baggie really gets me! I spent the past few weeks
> checking on some of my letterboxes and I can't tell you how many of
> them had the journal sitting outside of the baggie.


If people don't respect the placers product, then less boxes will be
made for you finders. Respect the wishes of nature and of placer and
everyone will be happier.

Phyto
(a mostly placer)

I have to agree with Ryan here... some spots are really hard to get boxes
back in "safely". We hit one of those on our group trip two weeks ago. It
was tucked under a nurse log in a hole, but man, I could NOT get that box
back in it's little hole the way it came out. Someone else mananged to get
it back in better than I did, but it was very difficult.

And to address the original post, some letterboxes go missing because of
poor placement in the first place, or just plain bad luck. I've lost 3 boxes
so far, out of 50. The first one I lost was under a bridge where there were
homeless people living. Poof gone. Second one I lost was under a log, a VERY
mossy log, on a secondary trail, tucked INSIDE the pile of logs. It was by
far my most perfect hiding spot. Easy to get to, almost handicap accessible,
safely out of sight, etc etc. Except for the fact that 3 months later the
park people decided my log needed to be removed. They cut it up and took it
away.. no word from my box.

The third one was also behind a log on a college campus. It also got
"cleaned up". This time the grounds people saved it for me and even helped
me to relocate it.

As for #2.. I have a hard time when people don't put things back in bags. I
always carry extra bags, from teeny tiny ones for stamps all the way up to
gallon size in case the box is cracked.

I try to email box placers for all boxes I find, for the same reason..I love
to hear how my boxes are doing, so I know others probably do as well.

Just keep emailing people, sooner or later it might catch on.

Melanie aka Maiden1974
-----Original Message-----
From: rscarpen [mailto:RiskyNil@pocketmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:36 PM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Some Letterboxing Observations


> 1. I think the main reason letterboxes go missing is poor
> replacement by visitors. [This assumes a good hiding spot by the
> placer! :-)]

Yeah, you can't count on someone finding your box replacing the box
as well as or better than it was found. A *good* hiding place tries
to idiot-proof the process, though. Some places are hard to get
JUST right. There's one tree in particular I remember where I hid a
box, and someone I had test looking for the box couldn't see it even
when they looked in the right hole and it was inches from their
face. Later visits showed the box virtually in plain view with over
a dozen people who'd found it by accident. In the end, I had to
conclude it was a bad hiding spot because the box needed to be place
JUST right so it wasn't in view, and the people replacing it didn't
realize (or care?) about it. *shrug*

But a good hiding place should make it easy for even the most
careless letterboxers to hide the box well.

> When putting the stamps and journals back in the letterbox,
> these same folks sometimes don't get the journal back into its
> zippy.

In an ideal world, that would never happen. But we haven't reached
that point yet. Make sure you've got a good letterbox container in
the first place, though, because even properly bagged journals fail!

> After I've visited a letterbox, I email the owner to let them know
> how their box is doing.... Isn't this a common courtesy?

It's nice when that happens, but that's NOT normal for most
letterboxers. I'm even guilty of not reporting finds--mostly out of
laziness. Usually I'll write if there's a problem with the box, but
otherwise it's a shoot or miss thing for me. (Depends on how
reliable my Internet access is as well. There are times when I
*can't* e-mail people easily.)

> Do most of you ever hear from firsties?

Nope.

When it comes to hiding letterboxes, you really need a mindset that
you're doing it for others to enjoy and let it go at that. If you
get too emotionally attached to a letterbox you've placed--it's
bound to hurt you eventually. Either it doesn't get the visitors
you hoped for, or the box goes missing, or whatever. Just remember,
though, even if you don't hear back about your boxes as much as
you'd like, there's still people out there who enjoy finding them
and appreciate your efforts.

There are boxes I've hidden nearly three years ago and haven't heard
so much as a whisper about. Of course, they do tend to be a little
off the beaten path, but still, three years is quite a while to go
for nobody to find a box!

Carpe diem!

-- Ryan


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

. Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as
> well as when the
> folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm talking
> about.

I don't know how "seasoned" I am, but I can say that I personally would
appreciate it if someone told me when I didn't rehide a box well. Often am
boxing with my children and allow them to find or replace the box. SO, I
don't always know how it was originally hid, or how it was replaced. I try
to check, but....

So, perhaps dropping a *friendly* note after finding a less-than-well
replaced box would go a ways towards alleviating the problem?

I know reading the friendlier posts on this subject has reminded me to be
more considerate.

Mama Stork

Dragon Lady, what you shared about inconsiderate letterboxers is beyond belief ! That sounds like a perfect example of people needing to step back, get a perspective, cut down on the caffeine, and re-focus on what letterboxing is all about. I sure hope no kids were along with that group, to see their bad example. If the getting the counts makes one that obsessed, it may be time to move to a new state where getting the counts can't possibly be the main attraction of letterboxing. To be honest, once I learned that CT is practically crawling w/ boxes, while I need to count on a minimum of 2-3 hours spent on just about every search in my vicinity, I just stopped even looking at all those counts so I wouldn't get discouraged. I'm just happy to have a few nifty stamps in my book, and discover some cool hikes. I was careful about re-packing the other day even when gnats were swarming me due to our proximity to a vulture's lovely dead dinner. (Story remains to be told when I have time). I forgot to bring baggies, but won't forget again. I hope my boxes get treated better here in PA, when I plant some. -lunaryakketyact

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All very good observations on your part. Let me share something
with you.... After planting our Snow Dogs series in Breeseman
Forest near our home (And I mean within a 5 minute drive) and
reading of the horror stories on the list, I decided to keep an
eye on them and check them. Every day ( I was unemployed at
the time, had time to burn, and they were, after all, our first
plants and were kinda special to us.) I would go and check on
them.... They sat lonely for a little while and then a few people
came searching for them. Most everyone put them back in the same
place and the same way that I had originally hidden them,
however......

It became apparently obvious that there were/are two types of
letterboxers in my not so humble opinion. The first group appear
to have been doing this for quite some time and are very careful
and quiet about how they do things and how they replace things.
The other group on the other hand..... Well, lets just say, if
you remember Goofus and Gallant, suffice it to say that the second
group is NOT related to Gallant in any manner at all. (grin) Now,
before this goes any farther, let me say that I am not pointing
fingers at anyone nor am I accusing anyone of belonging to either
group. I'm just sharing my observations.

I think the biggest problem that we as a group face together in
this sport/hobby is the lack of organization. Mark Pepe makes a
good point about it over on his website on this same subject.
Now, first off, let me say this. Even having an organization will
not stop people from improperly re hiding a letterbox after they
are done stamping it in. That's a manners/etiquette/respect thing
an if you didn't learn it in your childhood, it'll be hard to
learn it now.

I can't tell you the number of times I had to re-hide my boxes in
Breeseman Forest. Now, I can not tell you if the last person to
stamp in was the one responsible for not re-hiding the box
correctly, but that's what I believe it was. Based on the fact
that whenever I discovered evidence of teenagers or others in the
area of one of the boxes and it was missing, all I can assume is
that either the 'others' stumbled across it, which could very well
happen, or, the last person to stamp in didn't re-hide it well
enough and it was discovered. Overall we lost several of the boxes
and have since pulled the boxes, carving a new series to replace
the Snow Dogs in that park.

So, to make a short story long, I'll just say this.... Am much
fun as the 'No Rules' seem to be for some, I believe that we
need rules and guidelines to help guide the new people entering
this hobby in the correct direction.

That's just my 2.786756434342356 cents worth. (grin)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Steve of Team Rayvenhaus
The World of Letterboxing Community
http://www.lbworld.org - Carpe Arcanum Arco
"A world of difference awaits you."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and one last thing.....

Just because one person or even a few people can't or will not, or don't yet know how to 'respect' my boxes, doesn't
mean that I'm going to stop planting boxes. I look at it this way. When I place it in the wild, it's gone. If I hear
anything back, that's bonus. If I check on it and it disappears, I recreate it and replace it. I keep all the artwork
I used to make the box so that's no problem. It's only a few dollars and if I can't afford that, then I'd better find
a different hobby to do. So, I for one, am not going to stop placing boxes if others don't start respecting them.

(shrug) Just my feelings on that subject.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Steve of Team Rayvenhaus
The World of Letterboxing Community
http://www.lbworld.org - Carpe Arcanum Arco
"A world of difference awaits you."
----------------------------------------------------------------

As much as we want to agree with you on maybe needing rules, we beg
to disagree. We need not rules for letterboxing, but respect.
Ultimately the reason why we're very careful in replacing boxes is
that we respect the time, money, effort, thought and little piece of
yourself that each letterboxer includes on every single box they
plant. We don't care if your carvings are not quite "smithsonian
material", we don't care if we hike 1 mile for 20 boxes or 11 miles
for 4 (which we've done!). What we care about is that when we find
a box, we leave it in as good (or better) condition then we found it
so that the next group of hunters can enjoy the catch!

So now that we said that, its tough to instill the same traits on
1600 + people that are members of this list plus everyone else who
does not belong to the message board.

Is there a solution? Probably not. If there was a solution, some of
our friends with 100,200,300 + placed boxes might not be missing 50
or 60 of them. Just remember... pretend that every box you find is
one you've planted and treat it with the same care!

-Steve, Heidi, and Madras (Hopping off the soapbox)

Hello fellow letterboxers,

Thanks for all of your kind observations of my original post. I have a much
better idea of what y'all expect of your planted letterboxes. I like Ryan's
mindset of planting boxes for others to enjoy. And that is the reason I do
it. It's a lot of fun. There are many more places nearby that cry out for
letterboxes!

So if any of you make to Seattle, be sure to look check out the local
selection of letterboxes.

Have fun planting.
Keegan the Airedale Terrier
aka
Danny

We'll be checking in on your boxes in Seattle, we get up there often enough!

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny McMillin"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Re: Some Letterboxing Observations


> Hello fellow letterboxers,
>
> Thanks for all of your kind observations of my original post. I have a
much
> better idea of what y'all expect of your planted letterboxes. I like
Ryan's
> mindset of planting boxes for others to enjoy. And that is the reason I do
> it. It's a lot of fun. There are many more places nearby that cry out for
> letterboxes!
>
> So if any of you make to Seattle, be sure to look check out the local
> selection of letterboxes.
>
> Have fun planting.
> Keegan the Airedale Terrier
> aka
> Danny
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Danny McMillin wrote:

< Keegan the Airedale Terrier
aka
Danny>>

Hope we meet up on some letterboxing trail someday - we are led around
by a lovely Boxer named Kegan, but pronounced "Keegan"!
Ruby Tuesday

I have had a few knee-jerk reactions reading through this thread,
most are the same old, same old and there is no sense beating a dead
horse, lemur or American Idol singer (outrageous though it was).

But, I do have an observation on the observations as pertains to the
comment below about letterboxing with children. I typically do not
box with kids, although on occasion I have taken my 7-yr. old grand-
daughter, so it is not a completely foreign game to me. Nonetheless
this will probably not win me any popularity points with the family
boxing crowd. And try as I may, I'm not sure exactly how *friendly*
this will be.

I understand how exciting it is for a child to be the one to
retreive the box from its hiding spot -- heck, it's still a rush for
me. But just because the kids are taking the box out and putting it
back in, doesn't relieve you of responsibility for making sure the
box is rehid as well or better than when you found it.

The statement about not knowing how the box was originally hidden or
how it was replaced bothered me. I am assuming you are actually
with the child as they fetch the box, so I don't quite understand
how you wouldn't know how it was originally hidden? And when
replacing the box, even if speedy little fingers prevented you from
seeing precisely how it was wedged into the crevice, it is still
possible to replace the box and verify it is thoroughly concealed
and hidden from view from all angles.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the comment, but I am picturing a
mother standing 50 ft. away on the trail with the stroller while
little Timmy runs off into the woods to fetch (and subsequently
return) the letterbox from the tree stump. How can any responsible
letterboxer walk away not knowing if the box was replaced in the
same spot and adequately concealed? If location prevents you from
personally supervising the retrieval and return of the letterbox,
then perhaps you've chosen the wrong letterbox.

It is not the responsibility of subsequent letterboxers or the box
owner to let you know if your child did a good job of replacing a
letterbox. If the box is not replaced well it becomes vulnerable
and there may never be an opportunity for someone to come behind and
provide you with a friendly note. It is your responsibilty as a
parent to make sure your child has replaced and rehidden the box
well, before you walk away from the box.

SpringChick




--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
wrote:
>
>
> . Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as
> > well as when the
> > folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm
talking
> > about.
>
> I don't know how "seasoned" I am, but I can say that I personally
would
> appreciate it if someone told me when I didn't rehide a box well.
Often am
> boxing with my children and allow them to find or replace the
box. SO, I
> don't always know how it was originally hid, or how it was
replaced. I try
> to check, but....
>
> So, perhaps dropping a *friendly* note after finding a less-than-
well
> replaced box would go a ways towards alleviating the problem?
>
> I know reading the friendlier posts on this subject has reminded
me to be
> more considerate.
>
> Mama Stork

If the child isn't on a leash, he may jump up on someone and lick their face, too. :)

Dave
The von der Insels
P9 F175 X93 H3 E1
----- Original Message -----
From: Deb
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Some Letterboxing Observations


I have had a few knee-jerk reactions reading through this thread,
most are the same old, same old and there is no sense beating a dead
horse, lemur or American Idol singer (outrageous though it was).

But, I do have an observation on the observations as pertains to the
comment below about letterboxing with children. I typically do not
box with kids, although on occasion I have taken my 7-yr. old grand-
daughter, so it is not a completely foreign game to me. Nonetheless
this will probably not win me any popularity points with the family
boxing crowd. And try as I may, I'm not sure exactly how *friendly*
this will be.

I understand how exciting it is for a child to be the one to
retreive the box from its hiding spot -- heck, it's still a rush for
me. But just because the kids are taking the box out and putting it
back in, doesn't relieve you of responsibility for making sure the
box is rehid as well or better than when you found it.

The statement about not knowing how the box was originally hidden or
how it was replaced bothered me. I am assuming you are actually
with the child as they fetch the box, so I don't quite understand
how you wouldn't know how it was originally hidden? And when
replacing the box, even if speedy little fingers prevented you from
seeing precisely how it was wedged into the crevice, it is still
possible to replace the box and verify it is thoroughly concealed
and hidden from view from all angles.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the comment, but I am picturing a
mother standing 50 ft. away on the trail with the stroller while
little Timmy runs off into the woods to fetch (and subsequently
return) the letterbox from the tree stump. How can any responsible
letterboxer walk away not knowing if the box was replaced in the
same spot and adequately concealed? If location prevents you from
personally supervising the retrieval and return of the letterbox,
then perhaps you've chosen the wrong letterbox.

It is not the responsibility of subsequent letterboxers or the box
owner to let you know if your child did a good job of replacing a
letterbox. If the box is not replaced well it becomes vulnerable
and there may never be an opportunity for someone to come behind and
provide you with a friendly note. It is your responsibilty as a
parent to make sure your child has replaced and rehidden the box
well, before you walk away from the box.

SpringChick




--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
wrote:
>
>
> . Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as
> > well as when the
> > folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm
talking
> > about.
>
> I don't know how "seasoned" I am, but I can say that I personally
would
> appreciate it if someone told me when I didn't rehide a box well.
Often am
> boxing with my children and allow them to find or replace the
box. SO, I
> don't always know how it was originally hid, or how it was
replaced. I try
> to check, but....
>
> So, perhaps dropping a *friendly* note after finding a less-than-
well
> replaced box would go a ways towards alleviating the problem?
>
> I know reading the friendlier posts on this subject has reminded
me to be
> more considerate.
>
> Mama Stork


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Having posted the comments referred too, I feel at liberty to interpret the
response in a positive way!

you are right--if I was standing back with the stroller while my son was
off in he distance, I would be quite irresponsible, as a boxer and more
importantly, as a parent. That is not how it works for me.

First, I view letterboxing as a great opportunity to teach my children many
things--first and foremost about our world and enjoying and respecting
nature. Of course, there are also the more basic lessons such as counting,
reading a compass and following directions. This leads often to my children
retrieving the box from behind the tree, bush, whatever and I do not see if
it was under rock A or rock B or how the rocks were stacked. We do our best
to rehide it, and I try to double check from a variety of angles that it
cannot be seen.

I am glad I live in an area that supports family boxing. I realize many may
believe children should not be doing this--and I would respect any one who
posted "adults only" or whatever in their clues. I do want to make sure my
children learn to do this responsibly and respectfully--and that means I
appreciate hearing if we are doing something wrong (For example, not sealing
baggies) It is not any one else's responsibility to tell me, but it is a
considerate thing to do; just as I strive to teach my children discretion in
retrieving and replacing (an that is why my children are often rehiding the
boxes--it is a bit obvious that something is going on when a lady and three
kids are huddled around a bush)

I do my best to make this a fun activity for everyone--and not ruin it for
those who come behind. that is why I appreciate learning if there is
somethign I cold do differently. I have gone boxing in groups and my
family activity is often more discreet and repsectful than large groups can
be.

I appreciate you input, really, and appreciate you effort to not be too
unfriendly (grin)



Mama Stork
aka Pam in Cinci

>
> I understand how exciting it is for a child to be the one to
> retreive the box from its hiding spot -- heck, it's still a rush for
> me. But just because the kids are taking the box out and putting it
> back in, doesn't relieve you of responsibility for making sure the
> box is rehid as well or better than when you found it.
>
> The statement about not knowing how the box was originally hidden or
> how it was replaced bothered me. I am assuming you are actually
> with the child as they fetch the box, so I don't quite understand
> how you wouldn't know how it was originally hidden? And when
> replacing the box, even if speedy little fingers prevented you from
> seeing precisely how it was wedged into the crevice, it is still
> possible to replace the box and verify it is thoroughly concealed
> and hidden from view from all angles.
>
> Perhaps I am misunderstanding the comment, but I am picturing a
> mother standing 50 ft. away on the trail with the stroller while
> little Timmy runs off into the woods to fetch (and subsequently
> return) the letterbox from the tree stump. How can any responsible
> letterboxer walk away not knowing if the box was replaced in the
> same spot and adequately concealed? If location prevents you from
> personally supervising the retrieval and return of the letterbox,
> then perhaps you've chosen the wrong letterbox.
>
> It is not the responsibility of subsequent letterboxers or the box
> owner to let you know if your child did a good job of replacing a
> letterbox. If the box is not replaced well it becomes vulnerable
> and there may never be an opportunity for someone to come behind and
> provide you with a friendly note. It is your responsibilty as a
> parent to make sure your child has replaced and rehidden the box
> well, before you walk away from the box.
>
> SpringChick
>
>
>
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > . Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as
> > > well as when the
> > > folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm
> talking
> > > about.
> >
> > I don't know how "seasoned" I am, but I can say that I personally
> would
> > appreciate it if someone told me when I didn't rehide a box well.
> Often am
> > boxing with my children and allow them to find or replace the
> box. SO, I
> > don't always know how it was originally hid, or how it was
> replaced. I try
> > to check, but....
> >
> > So, perhaps dropping a *friendly* note after finding a less-than-
> well
> > replaced box would go a ways towards alleviating the problem?
> >
> > I know reading the friendlier posts on this subject has reminded
> me to be
> > more considerate.
> >
> > Mama Stork
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/60TolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

While I think some letterboxes are more suitable for children and
family boxing, I certainly am not against letterboxing with kids and
have actually placed a few series here in West Michigan specifically
with families in mind. You are correct -- there are a multitude of
valuable lessons that can be taught to children while on the
letterboxing trail. I cannot tell you how thrilled I was when my
grand-daughter took over navigation on a recent hunt -- reading the
clues, manning the compass, the whole deal.

But at the same time, there is probably more responsibility placed on
an adult letterboxer when they are with children -- overseeing not
only the respect and diligent replacement of the box, but also of the
environment, etc. The fact that a child was the one who replaced the
box is in my opinion not a valid excuse for poor replacement and it
is not considerate to the box owner or other letterboxers if this
compromises the box or hiding spot.

Thank you for not taking my comments personally and/or blowing them
out of proportion. Even though they were posted in response to your
comments, they were not specifically directed at you or any other
letterboxing parent. It is applicable to all.

SpringChick



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
wrote:
> Having posted the comments referred too, I feel at liberty to
interpret the
> response in a positive way!
>
> you are right--if I was standing back with the stroller while my
son was
> off in he distance, I would be quite irresponsible, as a boxer and
more
> importantly, as a parent. That is not how it works for me.
>
> First, I view letterboxing as a great opportunity to teach my
children many
> things--first and foremost about our world and enjoying and
respecting
> nature. Of course, there are also the more basic lessons such as
counting,
> reading a compass and following directions. This leads often to my
children
> retrieving the box from behind the tree, bush, whatever and I do
not see if
> it was under rock A or rock B or how the rocks were stacked. We do
our best
> to rehide it, and I try to double check from a variety of angles
that it
> cannot be seen.
>
> I am glad I live in an area that supports family boxing. I realize
many may
> believe children should not be doing this--and I would respect any
one who
> posted "adults only" or whatever in their clues. I do want to make
sure my
> children learn to do this responsibly and respectfully--and that
means I
> appreciate hearing if we are doing something wrong (For example,
not sealing
> baggies) It is not any one else's responsibility to tell me, but
it is a
> considerate thing to do; just as I strive to teach my children
discretion in
> retrieving and replacing (an that is why my children are often
rehiding the
> boxes--it is a bit obvious that something is going on when a lady
and three
> kids are huddled around a bush)
>
> I do my best to make this a fun activity for everyone--and not ruin
it for
> those who come behind. that is why I appreciate learning if there
is
> somethign I cold do differently. I have gone boxing in groups and
my
> family activity is often more discreet and repsectful than large
groups can
> be.
>
> I appreciate you input, really, and appreciate you effort to not be
too
> unfriendly (grin)
>
>
>
> Mama Stork
> aka Pam in Cinci
>
> >
> > I understand how exciting it is for a child to be the one to
> > retreive the box from its hiding spot -- heck, it's still a rush
for
> > me. But just because the kids are taking the box out and putting
it
> > back in, doesn't relieve you of responsibility for making sure the
> > box is rehid as well or better than when you found it.
> >
> > The statement about not knowing how the box was originally hidden
or
> > how it was replaced bothered me. I am assuming you are actually
> > with the child as they fetch the box, so I don't quite understand
> > how you wouldn't know how it was originally hidden? And when
> > replacing the box, even if speedy little fingers prevented you
from
> > seeing precisely how it was wedged into the crevice, it is still
> > possible to replace the box and verify it is thoroughly concealed
> > and hidden from view from all angles.
> >
> > Perhaps I am misunderstanding the comment, but I am picturing a
> > mother standing 50 ft. away on the trail with the stroller while
> > little Timmy runs off into the woods to fetch (and subsequently
> > return) the letterbox from the tree stump. How can any
responsible
> > letterboxer walk away not knowing if the box was replaced in the
> > same spot and adequately concealed? If location prevents you from
> > personally supervising the retrieval and return of the letterbox,
> > then perhaps you've chosen the wrong letterbox.
> >
> > It is not the responsibility of subsequent letterboxers or the box
> > owner to let you know if your child did a good job of replacing a
> > letterbox. If the box is not replaced well it becomes vulnerable
> > and there may never be an opportunity for someone to come behind
and
> > provide you with a friendly note. It is your responsibilty as a
> > parent to make sure your child has replaced and rehidden the box
> > well, before you walk away from the box.
> >
> > SpringChick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > . Many times the boxes are not re-hidden as
> > > > well as when the
> > > > folks discovered them. And these are seasoned letterboxers I'm
> > talking
> > > > about.
> > >
> > > I don't know how "seasoned" I am, but I can say that I
personally
> > would
> > > appreciate it if someone told me when I didn't rehide a box
well.
> > Often am
> > > boxing with my children and allow them to find or replace the
> > box. SO, I
> > > don't always know how it was originally hid, or how it was
> > replaced. I try
> > > to check, but....
> > >
> > > So, perhaps dropping a *friendly* note after finding a less-
than-
> > well
> > > replaced box would go a ways towards alleviating the problem?
> > >
> > > I know reading the friendlier posts on this subject has reminded
> > me to be
> > > more considerate.
> > >
> > > Mama Stork
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/60TolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------~->
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Regarding kids retrieving and replacing boxes...

I think this is absolutely appropriate and, of course, is great fun for the
kids, but I also agree that it does not exempt the accompanying grown-up from
making sure all is safe and well - the letterbox and the child included.

How many times would CSCM, a 38yr old MAN!, plop himself right down in poison
ivy if I wasn't watching!! The same goes for young children. A grown up
should be right there making sure the box is replaced properly, the child is not in
harm's way (poison ivy/oak, putting hands in holes where snakes might be,
near broken glass etc).

It all falls under the same worldly umbrella...The Golden Rule. "Consider and
treat others the way you would like to be considered/treated". It doesn't get
any simpler than that.

Happy boxing!
-Kim (Rustypuff)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/13/2004 7:53:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
vonderinsel@cox.net writes:

>
> I understand how exciting it is for a child to be the one to
> retreive the box from its hiding spot -- heck, it's still a rush for
> me. But just because the kids are taking the box out and putting it
> back in, doesn't relieve you of responsibility for making sure the
> box is rehid as well or better than when you found it.
>

One other point I'd like to make about this post is that no one should let
their child retrieve a box unsupervised - is there a possibility the location is
dangerous? Do you know whether you have rattlesnakes, copperheads or
cottonmouths in your area? How about poisonous spiders or rodents that might bite
your child's reaching hand if the box is located incoveniently close to their
burrow or nest? I sometimes let my 7 year old take out the boxes while I watch
and we always disturb the spot first with a stick and never reach into a hole
we can't fully see into. I know I'd be an unhappy mom if a cranky squirrel
bit my kid, much less a rabid racoon, poisonous snake or insect, piece of glass,
rusty can, etc.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Danny McMillin wrote:
>
>< >Keegan the Airedale Terrier
>aka
>Danny>>
>
>Hope we meet up on some letterboxing trail someday - we are led around
>by a lovely Boxer named Kegan, but pronounced "Keegan"!
>Ruby Tuesday

Hey Ruby,

Keegan's a great name, eh? I named our dog after Kevin Keegan, who is now
the soccer coach for Manchester City in England.

What part of the country do you letterbox in?

Danny

>
> From: "Deb"
> Date: 2004/05/13 Thu AM 06:44:28 EDT
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [LbNA] Some Letterboxing Observations
>
I agree with all that you said Deb! P/C or not, friendly to "family" boxers or not.....you state the truth. I was thinking the same thoughts as I read that post!!
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]